You can make other drastic decisions first if things seem that bad. Upend your life, move to a really cheap part of your country, change to a purely physical labor job or a self run business or something. All of those are less permanent and have a better chance of working out?
All of this involves an amount of effort im not willing to go through every few months due to corporations letting people go left and right. Once you land a job and manage to save up a little all of it will go down the drain for your next move and the cycle repeats. All that while tech bros promise AI utopia
find a non tech job is what I mean. work for a small town Library or the govt or something more stable, get out of ai impacted fields as much as you can. maybe risky but less risky than giving up?
Meh I dont want to go for a low salary job again, feels like my time isn't worth anything. Especially not after having collected some job experience and learning 2 completely different jobs which are both becoming more and more useless. I am tired.
I'd say its extremely company dependent and not really country dependent. Some companies have these type of talks with their employees, most I've been at do not. What's far more common is silently getting more responsibilities as time passes but never get an official promotion. So consider yourself lucky if your company is that open and communicative about actual promotions. Also, its not a promotion if it doesn't pay more (just putting it out there because I've ran into people that simply got a different title as a "promotion").
Yup. My biggest issue with designing software is usually designing the system architecture/infra. I am very opposed to just shove everything to AWS and call it a day, you dont learn anything from that, cloud performance stinks for many things and I dont want to get random 30k bills because I let some instance of something run accidentally.
AI sucks at determining what kinda infrastructure would be great for scenario x due to Cloud being to go to solution for the lazy dev. Tried to get it to recommend a way to self host stuff, but thats just a general security hazard.
I started to outsource thinking at my job as my company made it very clear that they do not want/cant afford thinking engineers. Thinking requires time and they want to deliver quickly. So they cater towards the very realistic deadlines our PMs set for features (/s). Funnily enough the features have to be implemented ASAP according to the customers, but the customer feedback takes like 6 months due to them using the new feature for the first time 6 months after delivery. I just dont care anymore. Gonna leave the learning part up to my time off, but getting generally tired of the industry as a whole, so just putting in minimal effort to pay my bills until things explode or get better. So for me its definitely outsourcing thinking at work.
I agree and I am far from being a senior engineer. I'm only in the market since a few years and started out just before the whole LLM stuff started to pick up. So I have been grinding a lot (2nd job I've learned, am in tech since ~2020) only to be confronted with permanent existential fear of having to possibly learn a 3rd job (which takes 3 years of full time work for neglectable pay in my country). I dont want to start from zero again and I am tired of corporations that are shitting out money to be cheap on their employees. Starting from zero is never fun, going back into debt is never fun and having to leave a job/career you like also is never fun. I'm 30 now and only ever have been making (noteworthy, still below median) money since 1.5 years now. I cant afford starting anew and there is little I can do about it which is extremely frustrating.
I work with/am friends with many junior-ish developers who are in the same place as you (got into programming in their late 20s around the 2020 hiring cycle). I'm very sorry for the stress you're dealing with.
I don't know if this describes your situation, but I know many people who are dealing with positions where they have no technical mentorship, no real engineering culture to grow in, and a lot of deadlines and work pressure. Coupled with this, they often don't have a large social group within programming/tech, because they've only been in it for a few years and have been heads down grinding to get a good job the whole time. They're experiencing a weird mixture of isolation, directionless-ness, and intense pressure. The work is joyless for them, and they don't see a future.
If I can offer any advice, be selfish for a bit. Outsource as much as you want to LLMs, but use whatever time savings you get out of this to spend time on programming-related things you enjoy. Maybe work the tickets you find mildly interesting without LLMs, even if they aren't mission critical. Find something interesting to tinker with. Learn a niche language. Or slack off in a discord group/make friends in programming circles that aren't strictly about career advancement and networking.
I think it's basically impossible to get better past a certain level if you can't enjoy programming, LLM-assisted or otherwise. There's such a focus on "up-skilling" and grinding through study materials in the culture right now, and that's all well and good if you're trying to pass an interview in 6 weeks, but all of that stuff is pretty useless when you're burned out and overwhelmed.
Yea I never had real mentorship and I am responsible for 6 projects as solo developer. I am heavily against using LLMs for my tasks as thats just passionless mind numbing back and forth with a machine trying to get it to spit out stuff I actually understand.
I also learned that I absolutely hate most programmers. No offense. But most I've been talking to have a complete lack of ethics. I really love programming but I have a massive issue with how industry scale programming is performed (just offloading infra to AWS, just using random JS libs for everything, buying design templates instead of actually building components yourself, 99% of apps being simple CRUD and I am so incredibly tired of building http based apps, web forms and whatnot...)
I love tech, but the industry does not have a soul. The whole joy of learning new things is diminishing the more I learn about the industry.
As a product manager, this makes me think the features you're building are not the things your customers need or want most. I'm curious if you were to ask your product manager about that six-month timeframe, and just ask the open-ended question of is there anything on the backlog that we can build that the product manager thinks users would pick up within days instead of months?
As a product manager, this feels like they're in the pretty typical B2B SaaS trap of building the stuff that the people who pay for the product insist they need but the people using the product don't necessarily want, so they've gotta invest a bunch of time and effort getting usage/feedback.
Could be for good reasons (e.g. they're security features that are important to the business but add friction for the user) or just because management is disconnected from the reality of their employees. Either way, not necessarily the wrong decision by the PM - sometimes you've gotta build features fast because the buyer demands them in a certain timeframe in order to get the contract signed. Even if they never get used, the revenue still pays the bills.
If they were building the stuff the people paying for the product insist they need, it seems unlikely that they'd take 6 months to use it once built. Unless it's some API that takes a ton of work to build to. It didn't sound like they were getting feedback for those six months.
Security features that add friction for the user are usually forced, aren't they?
Contract requirements do make sense, but I get the idea that this user would know that.
What are you imagining that would be actual value but not used for six months?
Put your LLM to use writing a resume and looking for a new job. You've already checked out of this job. There is a better and more fulfilling way to spend your waking hours. Good luck friend.
Historically (I'm 48), professionals have cared about their jobs, generally speaking, and often do make serious attempts to logically derive sociological benefits from their personal efforts. There's been a seismic shift over the past 5-6 years, though, and this sense of care has massively eroded.
> There's been a seismic shift over the past 5-6 years
Nah. It's been at least since 2009 (GBC), if not longer.
It started happening with the advent of applicant tracking systems (making hiring a nightmare, which it still is) and the fact that most companies stopped investing into training of juniors and started focusing more on the short-term bottom line.
If the company is going to make it annoying to get hired and won't invest anything in you as a professional, there's 0 reason for loyalty besides giving your time for the paycheck. And 0 reason to go 120% so you burn out.
I feel you. I’m 46 and now on the hunt for the right company to work for, and hopefully finish out my career there. While the company values haven’t technically changed, the actions taken in the past 5 years have eroded my trust so much I barely recognize the place. When you no longer have a sense of pride working somewhere, it’s time to move on. At least that is what I believe to be true.
> While the company values haven’t technically changed, the actions taken in the past 5 years have eroded my trust so much I barely recognize the place. When you no longer have a sense of pride working somewhere, it’s time to move on. At least that is what I believe to be true.
The problem, as I see it, is the changes that bug me [1] seem systemic throughout the economy, "best practices" promulgated by consultants and other influencers. I'm actually under the impression my workplace was a bit behind the curve, at a lot of other places are worse.
[1] Not sure if they're the "actions" you're talking about. I'm talking about offshoring & AI (IHMO part of the same thrust), and a general increase in pressure/decrease in autonomy.
It feels like covid turbocharged it though. The amount of grift outright corruption is unrecognizable compared to even 2019. Maybe it was always there but it feels like companies have gone full mask off now.
Software developers have never been professionals. Doctors, lawyers, accountants, chartered engineers are professionals. They have autonomy and obligations to a professional code of ethics that supersedes their responsibility to their employers.
Devs are hired goons at worst and skilled craftspeople at best, but never professionals.
Because having a job that's somewhat satisfying and not just a grind is great for one's own well-being. It's also not a bad deal for the employer, because an engaged employee delivers better results than one who doesn't give a shit.
Depends on how you work I guess. I explore solutions through coding different versions of some algorithm, sure I could theorycraft as well but I am stronger by just writing code and see if it runs. I type a lot so vim motions help me a ton.
Apps are usually built so people can't skip ads. Its the only reason to have an app. Other than esoteric reasons like "we also have an app because x,y,z also have apps".
I don't think that applies to Patreon which, as far as I know, doesn't have any ads in the first place?
The app might make it easier for them to enforce DRM-like behaviors to prevent people from pirating creators content, but I strongly suspect people aren't doing that on iOS regardless.
Yep, it's the driving force why I rarely install apps. If the mobile site doesn't work well, it's a good filter that I shouldn't use it. (Doom scrolling trap).
For those that are not aware, on Android you can install Firefox and Ublock-Origin. Life saver!
I agree with your characterisation of what is going on, and at some point, the EU states will have to decide for full fiscal integration or for removing the common currency. You can't have a common currency without a common fiscal union. So we either have to integrate more or desintegrate more, this inbetween we have now is not working very well. Speaking as a European, not sure what is better.
Not related to the comment, but in general I agree with you.
You can't have a single monetary system without complete unification, including tax systems, budgeting systems, governance models, retirement systems, benefits. I mean, you can, like we have now, but it's not sustainable, and eventually we all have it worse.
As a European, I would not want to go that way, since I'm afraid such a unified EU will be a bureaucratic monster that is even more centralized than the USA, and way more autocratic than any current EU state.
I'd rather take a step back, dissolve much of the EU's competences, and go back to pure trade union, dissolve the EURO as a currency, and let every member state take sovereign decisions on their own.
Even more centralized than the USA? That must be an outsider's view. You are aware that each state has its own tax laws? Corporate laws? Even criminal laws and traffic laws? And so on? Obviously there is federal law, too, but that's more of an umbrella covering all states in addition to local laws. The USA is a federation, just like Germany, Switzerland, or Austria are federations, and one common complaint you get out of these nations all the time is that they are not centralized enough!
The EU, on the other hand, is not a federation, it is a association of nations trying to figure out how to go together, be it as a federation or something different, because in today's world you need size and power to survive. Any EU state alone would be insignificant on the world stage and being sidelined one way or the other. The most powerful inside the EU would suffer the most, e.g. Germany or France, because while the EU is second or third on many metrics, the individual nations are small. Depending on which ranking you look at, the EU is just behind the USA in military and economic power, sometimes it is behind China in economy, too.
The strongest individual economic power of the EU is Germany, which globally usually comes in 4th place after the USA, China, and the EU as a whole. But this is deceiving, when you look at the absolute numbers. Germany's output is impressive for its size, but is still only about a quarter of China's! Germany alone is a dwarf and without the EU would be inconsequential. The post-Brexit UK is just learning this the hard way and all the sovereignity does not matter a damn. The top leadership of EU nations are not stupid, even if they could explain their reasoning better, and thus try to keep the EU going, despite its many flaws.
I recently became much more pro-total-unification, so let me give you this counterpoint: individually, European nations are no match to the major superpowers, neither economically nor militarily. We'll get gutted by divide-and-conquer approach. In contrast, bound much closer together (particularly with some form of pan-european armed forces), the EU would become a proper global superpower and a counterbalance for the USA and China.
There is not a single example of a multiethnic or culturally diverse empire or state that was successful after the rise of nation-states at the end of the 19th century.
All of them crumbled either peacefully or in bloody wars.
Why do you think such a bureaucratic monster that no one really wants would be an exception?
Maybe we can try it again in the 24th century, when the humans evolve enough, but for now, your best bet for a successful country is either an ethnonational or religion-national state.
You cant really believe any of the EU countries actually want to work together? The EU was only possible with the premise of countries keeping their autonomy. Believe me when I say that us Germans would rather go to war than merge with France, just as an example.
>> - yes, German taxpayers are indeed funding bicycle lanes in foreign countries
Just for people to know this, we are talking about 44Mn€ (20Mn€ + 24Mn€) of money in Peru as the commentator mentions below. It is wasteful but it has practically no effect on Germany. There are 1000x things that Germany does within Germany that moves the needle more than the talking about this rounding error. But that requires introspection and ownership of responsibility - both alien to the country’s normal compliance attitude of working.
That's the same fallacy as claiming that rich people save money by donating to charity.
Simple example:
- Germany gives 100 € to other EU states
- Those states 100 € to buy made in Germany goods
- German companies have 10 € profits from those sales
- German state collects 5 € from those profits
In summary, German taxpayers paid 100 € so the state can collect 5 € taxes, and companies another 5 €. Not a very good deal.
And this calculation is crazy optimistic, because it assumes that all money that Germany gives to other countries will be used to purchase German good. In reality, they will be spent willy-nilly and German companies may not see even 1 € in return.
This calculation is flawed. German state collects much more than 5€, because there is VAT etc and, of course, employees of that company pay income tax from their share of that 100€ they just got back.
What people like you dont understand is what we get back from investing into foreign countries. We dont just build bicycle lanes there because we are such nice people.
It'll stop soonish. The industry is now financed by debt rather than monetary assets that actually exist. Tons of companies see zero gain from AI as its reported repeatedly here on HN. So all the LLM vendors will eventually have to enshittify their products (most likely through ads, shorter token windows, higher pricing and whatnot). As of now, not a sustainable business model thankfully. The only sad part is that this debt will hit the poorest people most.
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