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Historical and geographical context of Japanese ramen from a Chinese cultural perspective: ra part is derived from 拉 (Mandarin la) which means pulled and refers to the process of making the noodles, the men part is derived from 麺 (Mandarin mian) which is the traditional Chinese character for noodles (面 is the simplified form). In modern China, this 麺/面 normally describes long-form wheat noodles however other types of wheat noodles (such as knife-cut noodles), egg noodles, various bean noodles and rice noodles are also popular and some of them are described with the same character. However, many are produced using alternate methods such as squashing through a press or manually slicing a large, pancake-like, thin, often doubled-over piece of noodle material in to noodle-like strands, or by cutting chunks off a block of dough. China has a lot of noodle traditions, probably (logically for its size and population) far more than Japan. Personally I'm a fan of 米干 or mi gan which is a Tai-style broad flat fresh rice noodle normally prepared in the southwest and 刀削面 (dao xue mian) or knife-cut noodles which hail from north-western China. Modern mainland China's instant noodle tradition, probably partly re-inspired by Japan's (possibly via Hong Kong) is known as 方便面 (fangbian mian) or 'convenience noodles'. A Taiwanese academic take on this whole thing would be interesting.

Note that the Wikipedia page for Ramen[1] is laughable in claiming the origin of ramen is unclear. It's clearly Chinese. Interestingly however, it claims the Japanese only began to use the term ramen after the 1950s, ie. after they invaded China, Korea, Taiwan and Vietnam (all but Korea being huge noodle consumers). Previously the Japanese used other terms which directly attributed the tradition to China. While there is apparently no clear evidence, one could reliably assume that Buddhist monks and other travelers around the Nara period[2] would have brought knowledge of Chinese and Central Asian foodstuffs back to Japan from post Silk Road China.

As a postscript to be fair (borrowing happens in many directions!), so-called Chinese baozi (包子) or steamed buns are actually Turkic in origin, as attributed by surviving Yuan Dynasty cookbooks (see also Jewish, Polish, Russian, Tibetan traditions). The same sources include an early recipe for baklavah which has since died out in China... probably in the anti-foreign repression following the Mongol Yuan Dynasty at the dawn of the Ming, which incidentally was when Zhenghe sailed his great Chinese fleet to Southeast Asia and Africa. Also, some people claim Italy's noodle tradition is a post-Marco Polo thing (who, some credible evidence attests, was actually from the now Croatian island of Dubrovnik, under the sway of the piratical Venetian empire but not 'Italian' per-se).

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramen#History

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanto_Rikush%C5%AB



Wikipedia (and you) conflate two different things here: the origin of ramen the food as we know it today, which is quite arguably Japan (although admittedly it's a fuzzy line to draw); and the origin of ramen the name, which I agree is almost certainly from Chinese 拉麺. However, Japanese ramen doesn't taste at all like Chinese 拉麺, they've become entirely different dishes.

Also, you're spinning the name change as Japan somehow attempting to claim credit, while it's actually more the other way around: the term 支那 shina became pejorative, so they stopped using it. This also predates Japan exporting instant noodles to the world (c. 1971), much less the term "ramen" being adopted into English to mean them (1990s?).


You're right there is an etymology question (the term ramen is clearly Chinese in etymological origin, the other names clearly refer to China) and the historical origin of noodles in Japan generally. I think given the etymological evidence of all terms (ramen and pre-ramen) combined with geographic proximity it would be exceptionally hard to argue that's not China as well.

As far as putting words in to my mouth or motivations in to other people's brains when discussing history, please don't do that, it doesn't lead to constructive conversation.


> Also, some people claim Italy's noodle tradition is a post-Marco Polo thing (who, some credible evidence attests, was actually from the now Croatian island of Dubrovnik, under the sway of the piratical Venetian empire but not 'Italian' per-se).

That whole area between Trieste and Dalmatia is a melting pot. Especially prior to WWII, there were quite a few people who were ethnically Italian there. Venice ruled the area during Marco Polo's lifetime, so it's certainly possible that even if he wasn't born in Venice, he was very much Venetian; similar to how John McCain is not Panamanian.

Also, I'm not sure if 'piratical' is particularly accurate in describing the Venetian republic. They probably did their share of looting and pillaging like anyone in power back then, but their wealth came from trade and commerce. Which is why things started going badly when new trade routes were opened to the Indies, and to the Americas.


You are perfectly right to question the piratical adjective to describe the entire empire in Marco-Polo contemporary times; that was my error - recently I read a history of the Venetian seafaring which made out that basically the city grew entirely from a den of swamp-dwelling brigands and ruffians who dwelt there to escape the long arm of other mainland powers. How accurate that picture is I don't know (I assume pretty fair though, given the geography and technology of the time), but looking at the history it seems 400-500 years had passed before Marco Polo... so it's not exactly current characterization regardless!


They were mostly refugees from the collapse of the Roman empire and various other invasions and wars: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venice#History




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