> But ... if the worker doesn't like it, why doesn't he start a business?
Starting a business is not a possibility for many people. This requires initial capital, for example. Most people do not have capital.
> And ... is it right for government to forcibly take a piece of ownership away and give it to the worker? Is that the proposed solution?
Chomsky is an anarchist, so no, he would not suggest that. it's actually the opposite: the ability of the owner to retain ownership is due to contractual agreements that the state upholds under threat of violence. Without the state, corporations (and capitalism) are not possible.
> Gosh, when you look at this discussion, you ask yourself, "Why on earth would anyone sign up to be a perpetual worker?"
:) An observation that Marx made was that because the worker sells their labor-power (ie, capacity to labor), they do not get to retain the advantages of increased productivity: the capitalist does. When we become more productive, we have two choices: work less, or work the same and get even more. The ones with the power make those decisions, and since they're not the ones doing the work, guess which they choose? The movement from the 12 hour day to the 10 hour day to the 80 hour day to the 40 hour week was not due to productivity gains: it was due to socialist and other worker-led movements.
> (I promise I did not set out towards that goal ... I stumbled there by "thinking out loud").
No worries :) I'd say that you're confusing correlation and causation: there are many, many more traditionally structured businesses than socialist ones. There are many success stories on the other side: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation
> Without the state, corporations (and capitalism) are not possible.
A state is not necessary for enforcing contracts - that could be done by private parties, as in anarcho-capitalism. Also: Cooperatives can exist within a capitalist system, but the converse is not true. So I guess it comes down to whether or not all property as defined by the status quo should be redistributed or reallocated, presumably by force; if that were not the case, there wouldn't really be any disagreement between left-anarchists and anarcho-capitalists, right?
I should have been clearer: I'm not advocating anarcho-capitalism, just having an academic discussion. My point was that a state isn't necessary to enforce contracts, although the competing entities that would theoretically replace the state are quite state-like in many ways as you point out. The Icelandic Commonwealth was anarcho-capitalistic though, wasn't it (anarchy + property rights)? Worked okay for a few hundred years.
I do see your point that anarcho-capitalism isn't really anarchism, though. The societies they envision are radically different.
Fair enough. Sorry, dealing with an endless stream of ancaps who demand that yes, they are 'the real' anarchists and yes, their vision of the future would lead to grand utopia.
> The Icelandic Commonwealth was anarcho-capitalistic though, wasn't it (anarchy + property rights)? Worked okay for a few hundred years.
I do know that Iceland is discussed in these circles, and I only know that both sides go "yes it is no it isn't." I haven't studied it enough to make my own call. Primarily, as far as I'm concerned, if it takes a state form, it's just as bad, so I haven't spent any time in this area."
I know you're trolling, but for the benefit of everyone else, anarchism actually existed in real-world Catalonia, the Ukraine, and arguably in Paris, in the real world, for multiple years. You are factually incorrect.
I don't have a ton of interest in repeating left-anarchist/anarcho-capitalist arguments with you though. It's clear you have the left-anarchist bullet points down.
I chalk up my anarchist period to indiscretions of youth. Nowadays I am more concerned about choice and innovation in government than in abolishing government.
Starting a business is not a possibility for many people. This requires initial capital, for example. Most people do not have capital.
> And ... is it right for government to forcibly take a piece of ownership away and give it to the worker? Is that the proposed solution?
Chomsky is an anarchist, so no, he would not suggest that. it's actually the opposite: the ability of the owner to retain ownership is due to contractual agreements that the state upholds under threat of violence. Without the state, corporations (and capitalism) are not possible.
> Gosh, when you look at this discussion, you ask yourself, "Why on earth would anyone sign up to be a perpetual worker?"
:) An observation that Marx made was that because the worker sells their labor-power (ie, capacity to labor), they do not get to retain the advantages of increased productivity: the capitalist does. When we become more productive, we have two choices: work less, or work the same and get even more. The ones with the power make those decisions, and since they're not the ones doing the work, guess which they choose? The movement from the 12 hour day to the 10 hour day to the 80 hour day to the 40 hour week was not due to productivity gains: it was due to socialist and other worker-led movements.
> (I promise I did not set out towards that goal ... I stumbled there by "thinking out loud").
No worries :) I'd say that you're confusing correlation and causation: there are many, many more traditionally structured businesses than socialist ones. There are many success stories on the other side: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation