Just a side note, I saw the founder of Pandora speak and he said their mission is to create a middle class for musicians by making it easier to discover, listen, and support non-hit artists.
I'm not sure if their plan had a broader strategy, but I felt the vision was at least admirable due to its mission beyond just firm profits.
As a non-hit artist, married to a non-hit artist, and who's produced a bevy of non-hit artists, I can say that roughly none of a non-hit artist's income is likely to come from Pandora / Pandora discovery.
At $0.0001/stream typical, Pandora itself cannot ever add up to meaningful income for a non-hit artist. Most of the income for the non-hit artist will come from that core group of committed fans who buy everything the artist makes, contribute to kickstarters, and shows up at all the concerts.
As a discovery tool Pandora's value is debatable. My anecdotal experience is that of all the various ways that I and other artists I know have made fans, Pandora was never one. YMMV.
(Update: I just found a bit a data that states that Pandora accounts for ~10% of new music discovery which is a lot better than I would have guessed.)
To my great surprise, I continue to discover new acts, music thru the radio. Just like when I was kid.
KBCS.fm and KEXP.org have great speciality shows. They also do a good job of posting their play lists, streaming archives, linking to artists, promoting upcoming shows, etc.
I've rarely discovered new stuff from a recommender (Pandora, last.fm, whatever). Now I don't even bother.
But I do rediscover music (from my youth) via YouTube. Which is a delight.
If mining radio playlists stops working for me, I'd be willing to try something like Apple Beat's notion.
I've had the opposite experience from you. I don't listen to much broadcast radio any more. I used to use Last.FM's recommender to find new bands to listen to, now I just use Spotify - after a few weeks the "Discover Weekly" playlist is spot on, even with a very eclectic taste in music (http://www.last.fm/user/voltagex/library/tracks?date_preset=...). I've discovered entire genres via Spotify and last.fm and gone to several live events that I wouldn't have even known about without services like these.
> (Update: I just found a bit a data that states that Pandora accounts for ~10% of new music discovery which is a lot better than I would have guessed.)
This sounds like a version of Russell and Norvig's Mengitis question. The probability you have a stiff neck if you have meningitis is 70%. But what is the probability that you have meningitis if you have a stiff neck? Keep in mind that Meningitis is 1/50,000 cases but stiff necks are 1/100 cases. Answer: 0.14%, quite small.
Similarly, the probability that you are on Pandora if you are discovered is 1/10. But what is the probability that you are discovered if you're on Pandora? Likely very, very, very small.
> the probability that you are on Pandora if you are discovered is 1/10. But what is the probability that you are discovered if you're on Pandora? Likely very, very, very small.
I'm not sure that's what the analysis is saying. I think the analysis is saying, "among discoverers, when discovery occurred, the discoverer was using [CHANNEL] with X% probability".
> I just found a bit a data that states that Pandora accounts for ~10% of new music discovery which is a lot better than I would have guessed
To me this says more about the weakness of the alternatives than about the strength of Pandora. At least it's possible to hear new music on Pandora. It's sad what a lowest common denominator echo chamber terrestrial radio has become.
In the USA, the overwhelming majority of terrestrial radio is owned by ~3 corporate behemoths with profit-sharing arrangements with the Big Three labels and their thousands of subsidiaries. What used to be decentralized to the local market level is now mostly inaccessible to unsigned / independent artists. Instead radio is just a distribution network for the major labels and their subs.
Payola: Payola, in the music industry, is the illegal practice of payment or other inducement by record companies for the broadcast of recordings on commercial radio in which the song is presented as being part of the normal day's broadcast. Under U.S. law, 47 U.S.C. § 317, a radio station can play a specific song in exchange for money, but this must be disclosed on the air as being sponsored airtime, and that play of the song should not be counted as a "regular airplay".
Revenue sharing agreements? SMH.
Imagine you're an independent artist. That's the hurdle you have to be able to cross in order to get access to discovery platforms. This includes access to choice Spotify or YouTube playlists, satellite and Internet radio, and other conventional discovery mechanisms.
Pandora is probably my best mode of music discovery these days, above Spotify and social suggestions. If you actively seek out more from the newer artists it suggests, you'll get good results. If you go there with a genre in mind where you already know most of the groups available, you won't get much.
I was the Owner of the SMALL Label. My friend from college I worked at is a professional acoustic guitar musician. He makes 100% of his money playing guitar. He makes next to nothing from streaming, he says 1% from Pandora, Spotify and others.
Then you may like Kaki King and/or Stanley Jordan as well. As a multi-decade player I can appreciate the technique and talent on display, I really can. However, the reason you haven't heard of him before, and others of a similar level of musicianship, is something that my Dad once told me: "Audiences don't like it when the music goes over their head." His point was that impressing other musicians is a very limited market - not trying to insult it, just being pragmatic.
I don't know if I totally agree about that. Seeing his live concerts there is plenty of Musicians self love AKA He was a feature artist with Martin Guitars several times and music contest. Also in his concert are a ton of people who don't even know how to play guitar. The melody is strong enough to follow.
That's fine, I just have a bit of instinct about markets and the overlap with technically flamboyant playing. Sure I've seen Tommy Emmanuel a couple times in sold out venues, but he's basically the 1% of that market. Buckethead also sort of fits too. I'm happy for your friend's success for sure, making a living is incredibly difficult in the business and the demands and travel I don't envy at all, so much respect indeed.
Pandora genuinely has a channel for independent music acts to submit material for play consideration. They are incredibly obscure about the process of whether they accept or decline to include specific music. But it does actually exist, so credit where it's due.
It sucks when you get declined - I had a seven-song album that I honestly felt pretty darn good about, was co-produced by a buddy that had an album on Pandora. I remember he was nervous about whether he'd get on Pandora and was relieved when he did, said he had an "in" at Pandora but wasn't sure it helped. He felt pretty confident mine would get in if his did - I submitted. They ask for you to pick one song from the album for them to check out first, and if they choose to check out the others from the album afterward, they will. So I picked the one that seemed to have the broadest enjoyment from my friends - fairly straightforward, nice instrumentation.
Months passed, and then I got a form letter saying the album was rejected. No explanation, no details on if the other songs were listened to, etc. I've never been sure whether to conclude if my songwriting just sucks more than I thought it did. Anyway, I haven't really had any ideas of where to submit the album since then, other than just giving up and putting it on Spotify.
Thanks for taking the time to write out your experience - mine was very similar. Submit as close to genre basis as possible, wait, and then get the rejection. Because I'm on the prolific side, averaging a 3-5 song EP about every 2 months, I do feel like I should be trying again and again. They can afford to be picky, which okay, good for them, it helps the 'curated' experience. I'll keep trying (especially with my newer stuff which features vocals) for Pandora but still only see it as one component in a diverse distribution portfolio.
Interesting... EarBits (a YC alum, I believe?) was trying to do a similar "promote indie artists" thing but built around a system of artists paying for increased exposure (I believe they wanted to be the "Google AdWords of Music").
How do you create a 'middle class' when there is no money left in the industry for smaller artists? Pandora pays the superstars well and if you aren't getting millions of plays, you aren't making enough to even provide for yourself.
This all started with file sharing 15 years ago. Everyone thought they were helping out the independent artists, but in reality, it made it so they could no longer compete without a huge corporation backing them. File sharing has only helped big labels by increasing the barrier to entry.
I know so many independent artists that were making a decent living (not rich, but enough to support themselves instead of having to get a job) selling music online. File sharing changed all of this. The value of music (CD/MP3s) slowly approached 0 and now that we have streaming, copyright infringement still hasn't gotten any better, it's worse.
Live shows, the profit model so many people tried to use as justification for sharing, don't really pay much unless you are doing huge venues and have big label connections. A small gig might get you a couple hundred bucks in a night. With gas, time, and splitting it with everyone in the band, there isn't much to be passed around.
This also puts many of these artists in completely desperate situations, where they will sign pretty much any contract. The big labels know this and use it to their full advantage.
The big corporations with tons of cash reserves will always be able to survive the slaughtering of an industry's profits...and we still have all of the major music labels. What we don't have is many of the independent artists and labels.
> Everyone thought they were helping out the independent artists, but in reality, it made it so they could no longer compete without a huge corporation backing them. File sharing has only helped big labels by increasing the barrier to entry.
Speaking about Indie Music
I'm the SMALL Record Label. The money comes in through sales of Merch, Gigs and selling CD/MP3. I think there has never been a time better for Indie Music. There are more people making a "living" in music and not being a big label band or a cover band, but they are all fighting for a very small pot.
Blame
1) Music Fans. The vast majority of people will never give Indie bands a listen and have the listening pallet of a 6 year old.
2) Indie population is high majority college age kids. I would love to see this expand. I am in my 40s and I don't know anyone my age that is into Indie Music. Heck when I was in my late 20s and early 30 I was "Old Man" to everyone.
3) Bands - Don't have enough money sense (Including myself as a studio/label owner). They have a TON of survivor instincts and the tenacity to keep going but they can't figure out how to turn things into money.
4) Streaming - People actively seeking out certain music pays the same as mindless random steams. I think if people search and specifically pick your music it should pay more.
I still write originals but I only put them in my set if they're better than the covers I know.
More indie rock bands should play more covers and stop pretending like they're god's gift to songwriting. More people would go to and enjoy their shows.
The country, bluegrass, jam, americana and folk scenes have tons of fans that support a large number of pro and semi-pro pickers and singers. They play a lot of covers because people do like to hear their favorite songs played live. A lot of them get to the point where they're playing like half their own songs, but some will always play songs written by other people.
The pickers that can play lead on an instrument, sing, and write songs are called "triple threats". These guys are few and far between and end up being superstars. Jimi Hendrix, Merle Haggard, Jerry Garcia, Willie Nelson and Brad Paisley, just to name a few. They play lead instruments on other people's recordings, sing other people's songs, and write songs for other people. Notice the emphasis on "other people". That's kind of lacking in indie music, which instead has a philosophy of solipsism. It's built right in to the DIY ethic. Don't sing someone else's songs, sing your own songs. It's ultimately a losing formula.
I make more money, play to more people and have more fun playing covers to people down at corporate gigs or just down at the local bar than I ever did in whatever indie rock band I've played in throughout the years. It seemed like we were trying to reinvent music from a faded memory in every indie band I was in. Covers were uncool, and we had to define "Our sound". "Our sound" ended up being much shittier than traditional forms like country or the blues.
Oh well, indie rock will be dead in 10 years tops. I've got a lot of refugees from the indie rock scene learning to play more traditional music. Either that or they just hang up their guitars for good. The DIY ethos is just too alienated and embittered to for people who feel like making the transition to adulthood.
Recently went to a one-day festival at a winery. All sorts of genres represented by very capable musicians across the day and evening. Every act played original music except one guy (Max Savage) who, though usually playing his own stuff, covered all of Paul Simon's Graceland.
The crowd was biggest and most engaged for Max Savage. After hearing 10ish songs that I knew back to front, the next act of originals felt very flat, despite being the more well known artist.
It made me very keen to hear Max cover other full albums, even a festival of nothing but interesting covers. Not cheesy covers, but cross-genre tweaks, etc. I'd pay to attend that gig sooner than I would an event of purely originals that I didn't really know.
A cover done well can be very enjoyable. I tire of the album originals of Zep songs, but enjoy the song all over again when it is a cover by someone else.
Then there are covers that reimagine the song, like "White Rabbit" by Sanctuary. Pretty awesome. And who can forget "Tamborine Man" by William Shatner (!)
I'm another person in their 40s that (tries to) primarily listens to Indie. What are you tips for discovering music?
I primarily am using Pandora and it really depends how much time I spend thumbing music up or down. Once I zero in a station it doesn't seem like I hear new artists or songs very often.
I'll also add that in my personal case, pandora led me to finding and buying more music. Spotify and smartphones over iPods (and buying a house) are why I don't by albums very often anymore.
I was going to say discovering music is easy, maybe it's just me, but like anything, just get stuck in?
a) Find some bands you like, go see them live.
b) Get talking to people at the gigs (this helps if they're smaller venues), they'll recommend all sorts.
c) See the support bands, odds on you'll like some of them, then go and see them, see the other bands they're in, it doesn't take long before this gets out of control :).
d) Make friends, go and see bands they like, it might not always be your thing, but if it's a social thing anyway, it doesn't really matter.
e) Go to festivals, listen to all the bands beforehand - i used to generated spotify playlists of glastonbury etc. Ok, listening to stuff on spotify doesn't make the artist much, but if you like them, go see them when they headline, buy merch, recommend them to friends etc.
f) I used to take photos, it's pretty much a dead industry nowadays but it puts you in touch with bands and helps get you kind of noticed which might lead to opportunites you might not get otherwise.
g) Be eclectic, you're spoilt for choice, if you're lucky enough to be in London or SE England or a decent sized city.
h) Follow bands on facebook, soundcloud... often this leads to other similar bands.
i) Personally i don't bother with large venues or bigger bands that much, i might make the odd exception, but there's serious amounts of really great music and musicians well away from the expensive/aircraft hanger venue/popular stuff and there's the bonus it might actually have some meaning because it's not trying to make money :).
I haven't and don't find Pandora to be good for finding new music. Now that I don't have much time to seek new artists I usually hop on people's playlists on Spotify or try radio stations, something a little more hand picked. When I really had time to find new music there are college radio stations that put out podcasts DJ picked music, there are lots of blogs to guide you and you can always use the charts in various countries. The staggering amount of new music that comes out every week makes it extremely difficult to keep up with especially if you like to listen to the entire album.
Music Fans. The vast majority of people will never give Indie bands a listen and have the listening pallet of a 6 year old.
Seems harsh to blame people for their personal tastes. Maybe the product is wrong or the genre limited. Surely blaming discoverability and the like is fairer? Beyond discoverability, I think repetition is very important which is where labels and links to radio/etc are useful.
I think you're spot on at 4). Just the other day I gave up on buying music for this exact reason and went with a YouTube player.
This is the service I'm looking for:
A free service optimized at promoting new music, or just random radio. Medium bit rate MP3 ok if 320kbps can be sold for a low monthly fee instead. Spotify is way too expensive for this, use case.
An added value store for those rare gems I actually want to spend money on. For me, most importantly, high quality recordings in lossless CD-quality. For other it might be fan memberships to get pre releases or other bonus things.
To me the problem is he either or thing. Either I have to buy lots of insanely expensive downloads in iTunes or something, and then listen only to that. Or, I can get the opportunity to discover new things in Spotify or tidal for equally insanely expensive service fee, but have no option to keep discoveries besides keep paying said insane fee.
Bandcamp's Music Feed feature is basically the streaming radio bit you're after, and Bandcamp itself will let you purchase and download lossless copies of the music. I wish Bandcamp was even bigger than it is, because it totally deserves to be.
Thanks, it did pass my radar, will check it out again.
But I realized I left out the hardest requirement, which probably is the killer for most competition, i want to use the same service to listen to mainstream music (at least the old mainstream music I listen to)
Edit: OTOH it might be possible to get by with covers only. A search for Pink Floyd certainly didn't disappoint.
Pandora pays the superstars well and if you aren't getting millions of plays, you aren't making enough to even provide for yourself.
In November 2012, the Grammy-nominated hit song-writer Ellen Shipley reported that one of her most popular tracks got played 3,112,300 times on Pandora.
For this, she was paid $39.61
(Source: the somewhat depressing "The Internet is Not The Answer", by Andy Keen)
I'm not sure if their plan had a broader strategy, but I felt the vision was at least admirable due to its mission beyond just firm profits.